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Readers Letters
Name: Edmund Standing
Date: 11/05/2008
Comment: Stu Wilde asks:
'Do YOU sincerely believe WTC 7 just collapsed from a few small fires and minor debris hitting it???'
No, I don't. I believe it collapsed due to the major damage and fires seen here:
http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/wtc7groove1.jpg
http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/wtc7groove2.jpg
http://www.911myths.com/assets/images/ZafarWTC7.jpg
I also believe Deputy Chief Peter Hayden, who was there at the time:
'By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o'clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o'clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse'.
(http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/hayden.html) |
Name: HF
Date: 10/05/2008
Comment: Bangladesh
DHAKA, Bangladesh, May 8 (Compass Direct News) – Muslim villagers in Mymensingh district eager to rid the area of the Christian work of a local pastor have gang-raped his 13-year-old daughter.
Pastor Motilal Das of United Bethany Church said that at around 3 a.m. on Friday (May 2) the villagers sexually assaulted his daughter, Elina Das, and left her unconscious in front of his house in an attempt to drive him and his Christian ministry out of Laksmipur village in Fulbaria sub-district, 120 kilometers (75 miles) north of the capital.
Local residents have long been angry with him for his ministry and evangelism, he said, and he has received death threats.
“I did not pay attention to any of the threats or hindrances – I continued evangelical and pastoral activities with prayer,” Das told Compass. “They targeted me to evict from this area to stop the Christian activities. When nothing stopped me, then they wanted to leave me scarred for life, so that I would be upset and not be able to show my face to the society for shame, and therefore I would leave the village.”
Das, who became the first Christian in the area in 1986 and has been key in an increase to more than 250 Christians and the emergence of 12 churches, said the brutal attack was pre-planned and calculated to stop further expansion of Christianity in northern Bangladesh.
“Otherwise, why would they rape such a minor girl?” he said.
Elina Das is the only Christian student at her school, he said. “Always local boys used to tease her on her way to school,” he said, “and used to tell her filthy words against Christianity and western culture.”
Five villagers attacked her when she went from her thatched house to an outdoor latrine, said investigating officer Sanwar Hossen of Fulbaria police station.
“Five people lying in ambush in the pitch-dark near the toilet snatched her by gagging her mouth with her body scarf [and taking her] to a nearby tea stall, 400 meters from the house, where they gang-raped her,” Hossen said.
Besides the religious opposition of some residents, the officer said villagers had no personal or commercial conflicts with the Das family that could serve as a motive for the assault.
souce :
http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=5368&backpage=summaries&critere=&countryname=&rowcur= |
Name: Harish Kumar
Date: 08/05/2008
Comment: To give an example , RSS a hindu nationalist organisation has taken MF Hussain to court for painting nude images of hindu deities.No proof exists for the existence of these deities.But the hindu culture which fostered these irrational beliefs also taught people to prefer peaceful avenues first.
But we saw the amount of violence on the streets following the danish cartoons.
Moreover hindu deities and religous ideas are regularly ridiculed in movies and most hindus though hurt do not resort to violence.But if Islamic holy books are subjected to same amount of ridiculed you would be murdered.
Classic example is of Salman Rushdie.Something like that would not (would not be allowed) to happen in Hinduism.
Also Meera Nanda cannot write such articles in an Islamic country. |
Name: Harish Kumar
Date: 08/05/2008
Comment: While the author is wright in saying both are irrational , she must understand that in hinduism and buddhism there is no call to persecute the unbeliever. Tradionally , hindus and budhhists have conducted debates and arrived at consensus.Exceptions have been there of course.
The problem with Semetic religions is not that they are violent but don't accept other points of view and demand obedience to a book and prophet.Freedom of speech is not allowed at all. Violence is one of the means of preventing a scientific outlook.Non-violent methods include ex-communication and boycott(something like Gandhi did).
But in eastern religions , though irrational , you dont have such problems.Thats why hindu practices keep evolving to suit the times. |
Name: HF
Date: 04/05/2008
Comment: >why wouldn't they work harder to >provide information and clarification >about 9/11?
NASA doesn't bother either to work hard to provide information and clarification about the Moon-landing. There is a whole movement which claims that it never happened but it was all staged by Hollywood. |
Name: Stu Wilde
Date: 04/05/2008
Comment: I just read your article "The Pseudo-Science of the '9/11 Truth' Movement" and must take issue with the tone and substance of that article.
First and foremost: in a poll conducted by Zogby in 9/2007, 51% of Americans said they wanted Congress to probe Bush & Cheney's actions before, during and after 9/11. There are other polls out there that show at least a majority (and sometimes much more) of Americans do not believe the 9/11 Commission's report on the 9/11 events. There are literally hundreds of respected scholars; military officers (active & retired); academics, fire & police personnel; scientists, etc. that do not believe our Government's account of what happened on that fateful day.
For you to take 2 people and run them through the mud and then villify the entire 9/11 Truth movement just serves to make you look foolish and as though you are hiding something... I mean, what is wrong with people trying to find out the truth? Do YOU sincerely believe WTC 7 just collapsed from a few small fires and minor debris hitting it??? Why are there no pictures of a plane hitting the Pentagon? Why is there no plane wreckage from Shanksville? If Osama bin Laden was responsible for 9/11, why haven't we captured or killed him? Why has the FBI not officially placed blame on Osama bin Laden for the attacks?
There are far too many questions unanswered, and if our Government was being honest, why wouldn't they work harder to provide information and clarification about 9/11? Why is there so much secrecy? Why are people so dead-set against having another investigation? What could happend? Wouldn't it just serve to enhance our understanding of those events -- and through this -- we could make sure it never happened again... |
Name: HF
Date: 01/05/2008
Comment: why the Holocaust
The Hamas TV educational program, broadcast last week, taught that the murder of Jews in the Holocaust was a Zionist plot with 2 goals:
1- To eliminate "disabled and handicapped" Jews by sending them to death camps, so they would not be a burden on the future state of Israel.
and bit of freudian projection :
2- At the same time, the Holocaust served to make "the Jews seem persecuted" so they could "benefit from international sympathy."
|
Name: HF
Date: 30/04/2008
Comment: arabian justice
A Jordanian court has sentenced a man to six months in jail after convicting him of the honor killing of his 16-year-old daughter.
The court ruled Wednesday that the man killed his married daughter because she had an affair out of the wedlock. The enraged father severely beat her with a baton and ultimately electrocuted her in November 2006.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1208870531240&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
|
Name: Rory Connor
Date: 30/04/2008
Comment: Regarding Christopher Orlet's "Lessons of Atheist Dictatorships" perhaps the following will settle once and for all the controversy about Hitler's attitute to religion. It is an extract from "Hitler's Sectet Conversations 1941-44", a book first published in 1953.
Mr Orlet seems to have a touching faith in Hitler's PUBLIC statements regarding religion. What other public pronouncements made by Hitler does Mr Orlet accept as factual?
All of the following are quotes from Adolf Hitler:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
21st October, 1941, midday:
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday:
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
|
Name: A.I.
Date: 29/04/2008
Comment: >an islamic love story<
Sad story for humanity and especially the individuals involved, but only one amongst many. It's hard to believe we are now in the 21st century.
Do you know what happens to a young Muslim girl when she is raped? Under Islamic Law she becomes a victim, twice. Better dead than disgrace the family right? |
Name: HF
Date: 29/04/2008
Comment: great Britain ?
LONDON: Britain has emerged as the focal point of Islamist terror in Europe, according to Europol, the European police force.....
What is worrying is that the number of arrests involved young, radicalised British muslims, sparking fears that the threat of an attack is growing....
"UK centre of Islamist terror in Europe: Europol," from the Economic Times
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/PoliticsNation/UK_centre_of_Islamist_terror_in_Europe_Europol/articleshow/2991115.cms |
Name: HF
Date: 28/04/2008
Comment: an islamic love story
A 17-year-old Iraqi girl was murdered by her father in an honour killing after falling in love with a British soldier she met while working on an aid programme in Basra.
Ms Rand Abdel-Qader, student of English at Basra University, was stamped upon, suffocated and stabbed by her father, then given an unceremonious burial to emphasise her disgrace. Police released her father without charge two hours after his arrest.
"Not much can be done when we have an honour killing case," said Sergeant Ali Jabbar of Basra police. "You are in a Muslim society and women should live under religious law".
Ms Abdel-Qader had struck up a friendship with a 22-year-old British infantryman known only as Paul five months before her murder in March.
She was believed to have last seen him in January, and the pair only ever met while working at the aid station. The soldier was helping deliver relief to displaced families as part of his regimental duties. Ms Abdel-Qader was a volunteer worker.
source : The Independent
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/girl-17-killed-in-iraq-for-loving-a-british-soldier-816301.html |
Name: HF
Date: 28/04/2008
Comment: a brotherhood of men
Hundreds of protesters chanting "kill, kill" set fire to a mosque belonging to a Muslim sect that they claim is heretical, while calls mounted for the group to be formally banned.
The attack was the latest targeting the Ahmadiyah sect in Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation. Hard-liners claim the sect, founded at the end of the 19th century in Pakistan, was devised by British colonialists to divide Muslims.
Apr 28, 2008 10:31 By ASSOCIATED PRESS
JAKARTA, Indonesia
|
Name: HF
Date: 27/04/2008
Comment: coming out from the kitchen
KARACHI: Thousands of women rallied here Saturday to protest against reprinting of blasphemous cartoons in some 17 Danish newspapers and an anti-Islam Dutch film, witnesses said.
The women shouted "death to Denmark and death to Netherlands," as they marched about a kilometre on a busy street. Police said up to 4,000 women, mostly from the Jamaat-e-Islami, took part in the demonstration.
http://thepost.com.pk/NatNews.aspx?dtlid=157969&catid=2 |
Name: ANONYMOUS
Date: 27/04/2008
Comment: http://killtownsecretarchive.blogspot.com/ |
Name: Allen Esterson
Date: 25/04/2008
Comment: Reference the Quilliam Foundation:
http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/
What more evidence does one need of the merits of the Quilliam Foundation than that it has been attacked in his inimitable fashion by the Guardian's Seamus Milne?
http://tinyurl.com/5oh7gb
Typical of Milne's rhetoric is a disingenous attempt at guilt by association – immediately following which he has to acknowledge the presence on the Quilliam board of advisors of Timothy Garton Ash and Giles Fraser (also the previously mentioned former "Bosnian proconsul Lord Ashdown" and the unmentioned David Goodhart and Catherine Fieshci, both associated with Prospect Magazine). Evidently to the sectarian mindset of Seamus Milne (for whom "rightwing" in the UK context is a more damning epithet than "Islamist") only people with what he regards as impeccable left wing credentials should be associated with an organisation dedicated to opposing Muslim extremism in the UK.
http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/advisors.html
|
Name: HF
Date: 25/04/2008
Comment: >That's your view, HF, but fortunately I do not believe for one moment that it is the view of those who count, the majority of Muslims in the UK.>
Yes "fortunately", good luck with that. There is nothing special about the Muslims living in UK, they living there is an accident not something of essence.
|
Name: Allen Esterson
Date: 25/04/2008
Comment: HF writes of Muslims:
>A moderate is just one who hasn't yet acted out as he knows very well that he must act according to the faith. A still ticking bomb...<
That's your view, HF, but fortunately I do not believe for one moment that it is the view of those who count, the majority of Muslims in the UK.
It's not an exact analogy, but it is a bit like saying there was "no difference in belief" between socialists and the Baader-Meinhof gang in the 1970s. I recall that there were plenty of socialists (at least among the younger ones) who had sympathy for the ideology of the Baader-Meinhof gang but who would never have contemplated such violence themselves.
|
Name: HF
Date: 24/04/2008
Comment: >Why on earth should any moderate Muslims be offended by ex-members of extremist organisations highlighting the dangers of these proselytising groups? >
That's a pretty rhetorical question, now from Allen.
Nobody knows better than a moderate Muslim that in fact there is no difference in belief between moderates and extremists.
A moderate is just one who hasn't yet acted out as he knows very well that he must act according to the faith. A still ticking bomb...
"moderate muslims" is a concept devised and trumpeted by the West which means : "muslims who think and do as the west would like them thinking and doing", i.e. who are not-muslims
For grasping the point see the blunt lecture on this issue of Turkey's islamist PM T. Erdogan :
"These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it."
Source: Milliyet, Turkey, August 21, 2007
If you are a childish mind who still finds conceptual explanations difficult to grasp then bellow the direct, poetic, delivery of the idea of Isalm by the same Tayyip Erdogan :
"The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers.
This holy army guards my religion Almighty our journey is our destiny, the end is martyrdom"
Source : BBC-Turkey's charismatic pro-Islamic leader, 4 November 2002 |
Name: Allen Esterson
Date: 24/04/2008
Comment: Ziauddin Saddar would not approve...
What I now have in common with Jemima
by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown
...A connection unexpectedly came to light on Tuesday at the British Museum at the launch of an enlightened new Muslim think-tank - the Quilliam Foundation, set up by Ed Husain, who wrote a best-selling book, The Islamist, about his journey to and back from Islamicist jihadism. Khan spoke from her heart about her respect for Islam and also her worries about hardliners and young Muslims - her sons included.
It was moving and personal. Millions of us live that complexity, traversing between worlds, refusing to be owned by authoritarian " leaders". She also said she had received death threats for expressing her views. Such intimidation is par for the course when you challenge Islamic Stalinists - Muslims may flock to vote, but many have yet to grasp the meaning of intelligent argument.
This is why some of us are launching British Muslims for Secular Democracy (BMSD) at the Royal Society of Arts on 1 May. We are starting with a debate on the compatibility of secular democracy and Islam.
Sparks will fly, no doubt. We want younger Muslims to make choices for themselves. For far too long British Muslims have lived in a democracy but have not matured into autonomous democrats. The expectation is that communities take direction from community leaders and deliver block votes to political parties as if they are cash-and-carry sacks of rice. Some Muslim leaders have, for example, ordered their flocks to vote for Ken. Disgraceful, yes, but this is how it is on the Indian subcontinent and in Arab lands.
A Muslim child is taught never to question and to follow instructions from adults, fathers, grandparents, teachers, mullahs and political manipulators. Respect for elders is admirable, but this excessive culture of obedience is stunting the development of Islamic communities.
Khan, Husain and BMSD reveal to Muslims their entitlement to be liberated and enlightened. And suddenly many more seem to be listening. Tuesday felt full of hope. But my fear is that fanatics see that and may yet blow it away.
http://tinyurl.com/3zgnd7
|
Name: Allen Esterson
Date: 24/04/2008
Comment: Re the linked "Comment is Free" article by Ziauddin Saddar.
So, according to Sardar, Ed Husain and Maajid Nawaz are neocons. As is the Sufi Naqshbandi Sufi order – not to mention Martin Amis, Salman Rushdie and Ian McEwan, who constitute "the vanguard of British literary neoconservatives", no less.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1968091,00.html
Now that's what I call sophisticated political analysis.
Sadar writes of Ed Husain and Maajid Nawaz: >Just because you have been an inmate of a mental hospital does not mean you are an expert in clinical psychology.<
That's a pretty fatuous analogy. What Husain and Zawaz provide is direct personal experience of the tactics of extremist Islamic organisations that are tirelessly active, among other places, on University campuses.
>The embrace of former extremists is a slap in the face for Muslims who have worked tirelessly to build a British Muslim identity and foster inclusion by constructive community activity.<
Why on earth should any moderate Muslims be offended by ex-members of extremist organisations highlighting the dangers of these proselytising groups?
>We prove again that radical extremism is the way to get attention. We make flirtation with violent ideology the way to be heard and become acceptable.<
With arguments like this, Sardar seems to be scraping the barrel to find criticisms of the Quilliam Foundation:
http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/
>Whatever the joy in heaven, we cannot allow former lunatics to take over the asylum.<
No one, of course, least of all themselves, is suggesting that Ed Husain and Maajid Nawaz should "take over" anything. I fear this is typical of the empty rhetoric of much of the rest of the article, such as his saying, "The thing nobody has suggested is engaging the silenced and diverse majority of Muslim communities." Plenty of people have suggested trying to engage what Sardar calls the diverse majority of Muslim communities. The problem is that there are no easy answers on how to do this. And in what way are moderate Muslims "silenced", and by whom?
>The silent majority is supposed to be groomed to embrace quietism... and, most important, to be put off politics for life.<
What nonsense. No one is trying to stop Muslims from engaging in politics, though many of us wish there were more Muslims engaged in politics from a secular, rather than a sectarian, point of view.
|
Name: SM
Date: 21/04/2008
Comment: When Muslims become Christians
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7355515.stm |
Name: SM
Date: 21/04/2008
Comment: Phyllis Chesler: Violence as a Form of Islamist Speech
Those in the Islamic East need bodyguards and air-lifts to safety in the West. But there is a pattern emerging in the West which we ignore at our own peril. For example, a leading American publisher of law enforcement and counter-terrorism titles cancelled Dr. Nancy Kobrin’s book about Islamic suicide terrorism. I wrote the Introduction for it and together Dr. Kobrin and I “went public.” A number of other publishers emerged—but they quickly disappeared from whence they came. I have been trying to find a publisher for a book titled “The Islamification of America” and guess what? No takers so far. I am ready to self-publish the work.
http://mt.pajamasmedia.com/xpress/phyllischesler/ |
Name: Mel
Date: 20/04/2008
Comment: The latest campaign against the Ahmadis in Indonesia is just one of many campaigns against "heretics" and small religions in muslim countries. Those are either not recognised as "religions of the book" to apply for status of dhimmi, or they directly challenge the role of the prophet Mohamed as the last one.
Even the always as "secular" titulated Turkey discriminates the Alevi (Estimated one fifth of the population, to call this shia/sufi influenced belief a "sect" shows callousness towards victims of countless government campaigns of mainstream Sunni missionarism and pogromes. This was recently visible again after alleged xenophobic attacks in Germany:
"The Alevi Community in Germany critizises the Turkish media and the turkish state for fear and hate mongering on the backs of immigrants. They also demand that the Turkish state should respect the fact that the fire-victims are Alevites, a form of belief not respected by law or tolerated in Turkey. Further they point out that the arsonists of Sivas, where in 1993 37 people died in an arson attack following a pogrome against an Alevi festival and the writer Aziz Nesin, are still free because the Turkish state refuses to take action. Instead of a political show in Germany, Turkish police should rather take action in Turkey to clear up "thousands of political murders". (free translation of a press release: http://www.alevi.com -in Turkish and German)
The Turkish and Kurdish Yezidi now predominately live in Germany.
A fate of expulsion and persecution comparable to witch hunts hit the Bahai and the Zoroastrians after the "islamic Revolution" in Iran. Now the only country in the Middle East where the Bahai have religious freedom is Israel.
The state of the small religions in predominantly muslim countries deserves a much higher attention than currently maintained, it would be wrong to dismiss those simply as "sects" etc. The governments of those states must be pressured to accept religious plurality.
Please continue to give this struggle a platform.
Still my guess for now is that the Indonesian government will disband the Ahmadis as "dangerous" for public morale and not a "real" religion out of pure religious bias. |
Name: Orphia Nay
Date: 20/04/2008
Comment: Good article, Edmund.
I posted about it at my humble blog.
http://orphia-nay.blogspot.com/ |
Name: I.A.
Date: 18/04/2008
Comment: HF:
>Eight of Britain's leading universities, including Oxford and Cambridge, have accepted more than 236 million pounds sterling, about $460 million, in donations from Muslim organizations, 'many of which are known to have ties to extremist groups, some have links to terrorist organizations'.<
Yes, someone has to take care that we just don't get too much carried away by optimism... |
Name: SM
Date: 18/04/2008
Comment: nice article on pseudoscience, also check
Daniel Engber in slate on "The paranoid style in american science"
http://www.slate.com/id/2189178/entry/2189179/ |
Name: Alex
Date: 18/04/2008
Comment: My common sense tells me that you're still stuck on stupid, since you're:
1) Implying that air traffic controllers, their union, and their FAA bosses, are all part of some eeeevil coverup.
2) You're still bringing up pointless minutiae as if they somehow erase the hundreds of hours of live video footage and audio recordings, thousand of eyewitnesses, and hundreds of thousands of tonnes of physical evidence analyzed by tens of thousands of federal agents and thousands of civilian scientists and investigators.
It also tells me that you really have no interest in the truth. However, that's hardly a revelation, since the same can be said for 90% of the "truth" movement.
Are you done now? |
Name: Fraser
Date: 18/04/2008
Comment: Before you go, maybe you could let me know what your common sense tells you about this:
"Hours after the hijacked planes flew into the World Trade Center Towers, the Pentagon and a Pennsylvania field, an FAA manager at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center gathered six controllers who communicated or tracked two of the hijacked planes and recorded in a one-hour interview their personal accounts of what occurred, the report stated.".......
........" According to the report, a second manager at the New York center promised a union official representing the controllers that he would "get rid of" the tape after controllers used it to provide written statements to federal officials about the events of the day.
Instead, the second manager said he destroyed the tape between December 2001 and January 2002 by crushing the tape with his hand, cutting it into small pieces and depositing the pieces into trash cans around the building, the report said.
The tape's existence was never made known to federal officials investigating the attack, nor to FAA officials in Washington. Staff members of the 9/11 panel found out about the tape during interviews with some controllers who participated in the recording."
(Washington Post, May 6 2004)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A6632-2004May6
FAA Managers Destroyed 9/11 Tape (washingtonpost.com) |
Name: Alex
Date: 18/04/2008
Comment: Alright, I tried. If you wish to remain ignorant, that's your problem. I have neither the time nor the inclination to hold your hand and walk you, step-by-step, through every single idiotic claim that the "Truth Movement" has made over the years. I gave you enough to get you started on your own - from here on in, it's up to you. Good luck. |
Name: Fraser
Date: 18/04/2008
Comment:
In what way do the words "As we mentioned previously" change the meaning of the statement "we are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse." ?
|
Name: Fraser
Date: 18/04/2008
Comment: "Ah, well, yes, of course. So in your mind, the buildings should have collapsed around the cores, after which the core columns should have fallen down like a giant game of pickup-sticks. Right."
Actually, this very scenario was the basis of NISTs "pancake" explanation.
Which obviously does not match with what
we all saw.
So if this is a ridiculous idea, you should take it up with them.
And what your photograph shows are small sections of the massively long columns.
Did all the columns fail at the rivet points?
Can you show me evidence of this ?
Why did NIST never say this ?
|
Name: Alex
Date: 18/04/2008
Comment: Err, that one sentence should have read:
"But by omitting the remainder of your sentence I have entirely changed the meaning of what you were saying."
Sorry. Silly typo. |
Name: Alex
Date: 18/04/2008
Comment: "Alex, do the following words appear in this document, and in this order?
'we are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse.'
Yes or no?"
1) That's not what you originally quoted. The lack of capitalization on the first word makes a big difference.
2) It's still quoted improperly.
3) It's still taken out of context.
For example, using your style of quotation I could easily say the following:
On 17/04/2008, Fraser stated that "The central steel columns didn't disintegrate into little sections".
See how that works? In fact, those exact words appear in that exact order in your previous comment. But by committing the remainder of your sentence I have entirely changed the meaning of what you were saying.
I don't mean to offend, but I gotta ask: how far did you get in your schooling? This is BASIC stuff, Fraser. I know the American education system isn't exactly the best in the world, but I can pretty much guarantee that learned this in highschool. |
Name: Fraser
Date: 18/04/2008
Comment: Alex, do the following words appear in this document, and in this order?
"we are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse."
Yes or no? |
Name: Alex
Date: 18/04/2008
Comment: "Here is a link to a reproduction of the letter:"
Congratulations, you just linked to a document which proves that you mis-quoted NIST, and that shows the exact phrases which I quoted in order to prove you wrong. Good job!
"Alex, if the central steel columns didn't disintegrate into little sections, where are they, these massive long columns ?"
Probably melted down by now. What difference does it make? Almost 7 years have passed since the collapse, and you're asking where the debris is? Are you serious?
Actually, you probably meant to say "why didn't I see any pictures of these columns", in which case the answer is a bit different: because you didn't look for them. If you bother searching for them, you will find them. Here's a sample photo:
http://www.studyof911.com/articles/BsB092306/index_files/image016.jpg
Note the mass of core columns still standing in the center of the wreckage, along with a large chunk of perimeter columns stating off on two sides.
Do some research and I guarantee you'll find hundreds of photos of the columns. I've got a good collection of high-def photographs that show the debris in great detail - if you look on any public torrent site you should be able to find a compilation similar to mine.
"I'm not saying that they would have remained standing, but should have remained intact, i.e., in one piece."
Ah, well, yes, of course. So in your mind, the buildings should have collapsed around the cores, after which the core columns should have fallen down like a giant game of pickup-sticks. Right.
You do understand, don't you, that the columns were riveted together from 30 foot pieces? That rivet points form natural failure points for steel columns? Even columns cast from one solid piece would not have survived the lateral energies being generated by such a collapse combined with the gravitational force being exerted on them once they became disconnected from the rest of the structure. They wood have bent like straws, and snapped at random lengths. Riveted columns stood no chance at all, but they snapped at regular lengths due to the weakness at their connection points.
"Not only do NIST fail to provide a comprehensive computer
model of the entire collapse, they don't even try to explain in general terms what happened to these columns."
Because anyone with half a brain could figure it out on his own. They also don't try to explain what happened to all the drywall. I suppose that's a mystery to you too?
Seriously, talking to you people is like teaching kindergarten. Every year I've got a whole new mob of ignorant kids, all asking the same dumb questions as the pack before them. I try to stay calm and explain things to you patiently, but you have no idea how hard it is....
Is it so much to ask that you do a bit of research on your own? Use your head a bit? Why can't any of you think past the dumb talking points that you've been feeding each other for the last 6 years? |
Name: Fraser
Date: 17/04/2008
Comment: Here is a link to a reproduction of the letter:
http://www.911proof.com/NIST.pdf
Alex, if the central steel columns didn't disintegrate into little sections, where are they, these massive long columns ?
I'm not saying that they would have remained standing, but should have remained intact, i.e., in one piece.
Not only do NIST fail to provide a comprehensive computer
model of the entire collapse, they don't even try to explain in general terms what happened to these columns.
What caused them to weaken to the point where they offered almost no resistance to the structure falling from above ?
The collapses happened at close to free-fall speed.
Did they melt ?
If so, what caused them to suddenly melt, even though only a relatively small section of them was affected by the fire?
They don't even attempt to answer these questions. |
Name: Alex
Date: 17/04/2008
Comment: "By the way Alex, I can assure you that my quote is quite correct.
This is precisely what NIST wrote in a letter to Bill Doyle and Bob McIlvaine dated 27/9/2007."
And I can assure you that I know you're full of shit. Of course, if you want to prove that you're right, all you need to do is provide a link to a reproduction of this letter. So lets see it.
"Alex, No matter how you look at it, NIST have been 'unable to provide an explanation of the total collapse'."
And?
Tell me, when in the history of the human race has an investigative body bothered to model the entire sequence of collapse for a large structure?
"They have been unable to show how these huge steel columns, even the sections which were far away from the impact/fire zone suddenly disintegrated into little pieces, all at precisely the same time."
....
Show me ONE piece of evidence that ANY of these columns "disintegrated into little pieces", let alone ALL of them, and at the same time! You're just pulling "facts" out of your ass now.
"Even if all the floors failed simultaneously, the central, vertical columns should have remained."
Ah, yes, over 1000 feet of steel columns would have remained free-standing while the building collapsed around them. That makes perfect sense.
Listen, you're quite clearly not operating with a full set of gears here, and I don't like to pick on the handicapped. Either get your mommy and daddy to proof-read your comments before you post them, or don't bother replying. |
Name: Fraser
Date: 17/04/2008
Comment: By the way Alex, I can assure you that my quote is quite correct.
This is precisely what NIST wrote in a letter to Bill Doyle and Bob McIlvaine dated 27/9/2007. |
Name: Fraser
Date: 17/04/2008
Comment: Alex, No matter how you look at it, NIST have been "unable to provide an explanation of the total collapse".
"NIST's analysis was carried to the point of initiation..."
Their analysis stops short of explaining what happened to the 47 massive central steel columns.
They have been unable to show how these huge steel columns, even the sections which were far away from the impact/fire zone suddenly disintegrated into little pieces, all at precisely the same time.
Even if all the floors failed simultaneously, the central, vertical columns should have remained.
It doesn't make sense, and NIST make no attempt to explain this.
Also you should be aware that the Purdue analysis conflicts with and negates that of NIST. They can't both be correct.
Which one should we accept?
"Common sense alone should be enough in this case."
Maybe you should read what Albert Einstein said about common sense:
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age 18."
(Einstein)
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